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First-Time DM Advice? (pawb.social)
submitted 3 weeks ago by Spitfire@pawb.social to c/pathfinder@ttrpg.network
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I am currently looking at DM’ing for my first time as well as being the introduction for PF2e to our group.

We’ve played for a bit, started with 3.5e, and moved to 5e, however we never felt satisfied playing 5e.

We are looking now at Pathfinder 2e to continue our group and as I am the one who brought it up, it has fallen to me to DM, though I never have before. I’ve only played 1e. The group seemed to like the emphasis on group cooperation versus solo rushing that 5e seems to encourage.

Group would be 5 players, one forever DM who is glad to play for once.

I am looking through different books to try and find an introductory adventure for us to feel out PF2e. One-shots were considered but did not feel like they would teach us as much about PF2e compared to a small adventure.

Does anyone have some advice for a first time DM who is looking to bring their group from 5e? Any adventures in mind? I had been eyeing the kobold king as well as Rusthenge.

Thanks! :3

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[–] kichae@wanderingadventure.party 6 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

You want to make sure everyone has read Chapter 9 from Player Core, which goes over the basics of the game. 90% of it will be fairly old hat for people coming from 3.x and 5e, but it does contain the core system differences from those games.

Menace Under Otari, the adventure in the Beginner's Box, is explicitly a tutorial dungeon designed to teach both game masters and players the mechanics of the system. Rusthenge is another purpose-built "first adventure", though it's not explicitly a tutorial, and has less system guidance for the GM. I've also heard that Dawn of Frogs is a good introductory adventure, that in some ways does a better job of introducing the system than Menace does (but I don't have it/haven't read it).AyeSpidey, on Reddit, also has an introductory adventure they wrote, that you can find on Pathfinder Infinite.

Crown of the Kobold King is a good early adventure, but it's a port of a Pathfinder 1e adventure, so I don't think it's the best choice for everyone's first time.

One thing that's key for the game is making sure everyone knows what their characters do. As people who've played something other than 5e, I assume you're all used to that, but I've seen a lot of people drop into the subreddit complaining that, as GM, it's too much work for them to know how everyone's characters work. The culture of "I don't know how to play, I just let the guy hosting things tell me what to do" falls apart here.

PF2e is fairly heavily based in D&D 3.5, though, even if the core 'engine' is different. What's markedly different, though, is how the game treats characters/creatures and the "character builder" game. The game itself includes a lot of guardrails that functionally prevent character-based hyper-optimizing. Character power bands are strongly level-based, and level is a direct, if mildly fuzzy, measure of character power. Many players grind against this at first, because they're used to finding wacky interaction effects and loopholes that just make them functionally a higher level than their character sheet says. Instead, the game rewards cooperation, tactics, and outplaying the other side of the table.

A lot of people playing the system like it for for how it just surfaces a bunch of 'paper buttons' for them to press over and over again, and how it provides a rigid, predictable style of play. I'm happy for them that the game provides them tools to generate the experience they want, but I've also found that these players have a more generally dim view of what other kinds of experiences the system can enable. It's a wildly flexible system that can power a huge range of table experiences, if you so choose. The key is understanding what is core to the game and it's balance, and what is just "good ideas suggested by professional designers".

The four core pillars of the game are the proficiency system (T/E/M/L), the degrees of success system, the action constructs, and the feat-based modular character design. Everything else is a default recommendation for adjudicating an outcome.

[–] Spitfire@pawb.social 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Thank you for the advice!

I had looked at the Beginner’s Box but felt it was a little too much of a tutorial for combat and more meant for those new to TTRPGs in general. We’ve been playing for years so I was looking for something just a little bit more than that, which led me to Rusthenge and Crown of the Kobold King. I know that the latter can go much longer but I also don’t have to run all the chapters for our first go. Wasn’t CotKK remastered for PF2e or am I mistaken?

The difference between loopholes with player power such as with 3.5e and PF1e coming to PF2e is something we’re looking forward too. It’ll be a nice change of pace we feel.

As a new DM and new to PF2e in general I am also wondering what books/sources to restrict everyone to. I know there’s the couple player core books but have you any other suggestions? One player has expressed interest in Battlecry for the Guardian class.

We are also looking at using Pathbuilder for sheets.

[–] kichae@wanderingadventure.party 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

spitfire@pawb.social Yes, CotKK was rewritten for PF2e, but and it runs fine, but it's still a port, you know? It has some rough edges. From the players' side of thing, I'm sure it would be just fine, but as a new GM... Let's just say, it was the first adventure I bought, and as a new GM I waited to play it until I felt more comfortable with the system. There's nothing wrong with it, but there are places where you can feel how it's not representative of the system. If that makes sense.

If you can get your hands on a cheap used copy of Menace under Otari, even if you don't want to run it, it's worth reading through as a GM. It really is purpose built for introducing the mechanics of the game, and is quite short.

There's no pressing need to restrict first party books, or even third party series like BattleZoo or Team+ sources, but the splat books do offer a lot of options which can cause analysis paralysis. Because the system doesn't have the same optimization meta as other, similar products, the expansiveness isn't really an issue, but players often get bogged down in the details. People who are used to playing the optimization meta, even if they want to stop, sometimes can't help themselves. I include myself in that group. I'm hesitant to suggest restricting books, though, because I think some of the more interesting classes are in splats: Guardian and Commander in War of Immortals, Magus in Secrets of Magic, and Thaumaturge in Dark Archive.

A couple of more things everyone at the table should be aware of, though, now that I'm thinking about it:

  • The game has some fairly distinct tiers of play, even if the boundaries between them are somewhat fuzzy. This is especially noticeable from levels 1 - 5, which is what I like to call the "deadly things are deadly" tier. HP is low, AC is low, and critical hits are common. Not only is this where the game can feel quite a bit deadlier than people may be used to, but people who are used to being able to solve the "sharp, pointy objects hurt" problem with basic class options will often find themselves feeling a little impotent.
  • Because Level is Power, and Power is Level, people who are used to established caster/martial power gap tropes may be caught off guard by the class balance, particularly before casters gain access to Rank 3 spells (i.e. Level 5). On-level enemies are real challenges to casters, not canon fodder, and at early levels they can be real threats. On top of that, the numbers are balanced around save spells failing as the default outcome (but a failed save spell also does half damage), which often leaves new magic users feeling less cool than they expected. This starts to go away starting around Level 5, once they start to exit the "deadly things are deadly" tier and begin to enter the "fantasy hero" tier, but until then... Let's just say that people have had FEELINGS.
[–] Spitfire@pawb.social 1 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I suppose I’m used to really broken builds being accomplished even early on from previous 3.5e and PF1e experience which is why I gravitated towards potentially locking out other books. Glad to hear that isn’t really the case or needed for PF2e.

I will see if I can find a used copy of Menace/Troubles to read through or if all else fails check my local game shop. Maybe the library might….they’ve had 5e books before.

We’re all going into this expecting something different than what we’re used to and the re-balancing is going to be a big part of it.

I’m still reading through the core books myself to more familiarize myself with everything. I guess I’m just anxious as well as I want it to be a fun experience.

[–] kichae@wanderingadventure.party 4 points 3 weeks ago

spitfire@pawb.social Yeah, the system just shuts down that level of min/maxing. There are no builds in the game that break the encounter math assumptions, and if someone thinks they've found one, they've either read something wrong, or discovered somethinf that will be in the next round of errata.

Rolls are always done vs a DC, which means there's no worry of a low-level creature invalidating a high level creature by rolling high vs a low row (or vice versa). That kind of wild luck has been stripped out.

Bonuses of the same type don't stack, so you can't throw Guidance, Bless, and Inspire Courage on someome to get them a +3 bonus to a roll. They're all status bonuses, and for each bonus type you tax the MAX, not the SUM, of all that have been applied, so the total bonus from those 3 spells is +1. This limits the easy, cheesy math-hack solutions.

DCs are level based, and frow quite large, which means players get very very good at tackling old challenges, but there are some challenges that are functionally impossible to overcome at any given level. Natural 20s have well defined behaviours in the game, so there's no "automatic success" cultural norm that breaks this.

It's important to note, the level that you use for the level-based DCs is the challenge's level, not the party's. The leveled DC table is used in designing creature and hazard stat blocks, and when creating a leveled challenge on the fly. Many new GMs to the system misunderstand the table and instead constantly scale every challenge in the game with the party.

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 3 points 3 weeks ago

Hey I missed you already talked with someone on the beginners box but wanted to add that yeah the system is tight and you can power game but it does not make a character that much more powerful. Even with all the expansions I still see like rangers as being the top damage dealers early on and thieves later on but again not that big a difference. Im by no means the best for finding game breaking things. fighter with druid archetype is one and the gnome flail was another but again they were not that good. You could just not do free archtype to begin with but many people like the extra flexibility. The incapacitation trait with spells keep them from being insta boss kills spell wise.

[–] Oka@sopuli.xyz 4 points 3 weeks ago

General DM advice:

  • Start with a one-shot.
  • Having a DM as your player is going to be very helpful, listen to their advice if they have any. But, also listen to your players.
  • You will make mistakes.
  • You cant plan for everything. Be prepared to make stuff up on the fly.
  • Dont panic.
  • If you haven't heard from someone's character in a while, check in with them, giving everyone a fair chance for screen time.
[–] ThefuzzyFurryComrade@pawb.social 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Group would be 5 players, one forever DM who is glad to play for once.

Sounds like a rather large group, but the forever DM is going to make things way easier so it should be fine.

I am looking through different books to try and find an introductory adventure for us to feel out PF2e. One-shots were considered but did not feel like they would teach us as much about PF2e compared to a small adventure.

I would definitely recommend the beginner's box, especially since this is your first time GMing.

Does anyone have some advice for a first time DM who is looking to bring their group from 5e?

Look through this so that you are at least vaguely aware of where things are

https://2e.aonprd.com/GMScreen.aspx

Remember that this system heavily uses keywords, so it may be a little overwhelming at first but after a few sessions you should start recognizing things and running will become way easier.

If you cannot find the rule for something don't be afraid to make up a ruling on the spot and then figure out the actual rule later. Although do be a little bit careful with the core math at first as the four degrees of success system and 3 action system make small changes have a large impact. Once you understand the math then it is a solid foundation to change to taste.

I would recommend that you ask each player what makes their class unique, that way you can see if they understand their character. This is because in DnD 5e almost all of the work is on the DM, whereas in PF2e it is much more evenly divided.

Emphasize that reactive strike (This system's version of Opportunity Attack) is rare and that the players should feel free to actually move around. Combat in PF2e is usually much more dynamic despite movement being way more expensive.

Rarity does not necessarily correlate to power, but instead to how common the item is in Golarion (The setting the books are set in). It is still good to get players to ask you for them as it helps keep the setting's theme coherent.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2530

I would recommend against allowing SF2e items until you are more familiar with the assumptions of the system as while they follow the same fundamental math they have very different assumptions. For example SF2e allows flight from lvl 1 while PF2e only allows it from ~lvl 8.

Emphasize when modifiers make a difference. For example if you have a bard/cleric and their +1 turned a miss into a hit or a hit into a crit, you will be surprised how often that comes up.

Don't see actions specified by skill feats as "You need this feat to do the thing" but rather "This feat makes you much better at the thing". For example: Group Coercion allows the player to attempt to Coerce up to 5 targets at once, instead of preventing a PC from coercing a group without the feat you can instead make it a Very Hard check.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2630

Encourage people to aid as much as possible. What I do is get the players to describe how they are aiding, and if it is particularly creative then I will give it the easy or even very easy modification

https://2e.aonprd.com/Actions.aspx?ID=2292

Magic items in this system are fundamental to progression, so unless you are using Automatic Bonus Progression you should be careful to give enough gold per level. Don't worry too much about going over as you can restrict the level the players get items by limiting the settlement level or forcing them to craft their items, or you could allow them to have the higher level (and therefore more powerful) items and increase the encounter difficulty to compensate.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2741

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2656

Give enough time for retraining, or even allow players to retrain for free for the first session or two. That way if they really don't like how their character plays they have a chance to change it.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2447

Trust the encounter building guidelines, unlike DnD 5e they actually work for the most part.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2715

Also avoid throwing PL+4 enemies at the party for the first 3 levels as the math is rather swingy before lvl 4 and it is hard to counter high level single target bosses with lvl 1 spells. More experienced players don't have as much issue as they can manipulate the system better.

At higher levels it is not nearly as much of an issue as optimized parties can take on more dangerous fights at higher levels There is a reason that lvl 25 monsters exist.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?Letter=&sort=level-desc&display=table&columns=creature_family+source+rarity+size+trait+level+hp+ac+fortitude+reflex+will+perception+sense+speed

Even if you have the physical books I would still recommend having Archives of Nethys open on a phone/laptop for how much faster it is to find things.

Never assume that your players will do something, instead what I do is figure out what will happen if the players do nothing and go from there. If the players ignore the encounter you prepared then you can put it in your back pocket for later. This is coming from someone who largely runs more sandbox-y games so it may not be 100% applicable, but it is still good to keep player agency as your top priority. In addition never gate progression behind a skill check, no matter how trivial; instead you can have them 'fail forward'

Don't worry too much about messing up, your players understand that this is your first time GMing and will not care.

Finally and most importantly, remember that this is a game and your fun is just as important as everyone else's.

[–] kichae@wanderingadventure.party 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

thefuzzyfurrycomrade@pawb.social said in First-Time DM Advice?: > Magic items in this system are fundamental to progression, so unless you are using Automatic Bonus Progression you should be careful to give enough gold per level.

This is all about first-time GMing, so I don't want to push back too hard on this or anything, but I do find that this element is wildly oversold and over bought in PF2e circles. The fundamental runes are, of course, absolutely built into the characters' power budgets, but as an item component they are also a really interesting design/play space for GMs, but this is a space where the broader PF2e community often tries to put its foot down hard.

I've found delaying magical items and runes at times to be narratively and emotionally impactful when the players finally get their upgrade and can have an easier time tackling enemies. I've also found occasionally seeding dungeons with significantly over-levelled items to be satisfying for everyone, too. Both are often treated as verboten by the community at large, though, which seems to demand rigid structure to their games.

[–] ThefuzzyFurryComrade@pawb.social 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

I thought that that would be covered by "Once you understand the math then it is a solid foundation to change to taste." but you are right in that I should have made it clearer that that is a good place to tinker.

[–] kichae@wanderingadventure.party 1 points 3 weeks ago

thefuzzyfurrycomrade@pawb.social Fair. I'm just very used to people telling newbies that various aspects of the system are sacrosanct and non-negotiable.

[–] sirblastalot@ttrpg.network 3 points 3 weeks ago

If you don't want to do a one-shot, I still recommend keeping it short. 3-5 sessions perhaps. Just to dip a toe in and even out the kinks, and be able to feel good that you completed something. Decide if you want to commit to a big sprawling campaign after the first little demo campaign.

[–] DmMacniel@feddit.org 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Check out the Beginner Box of Pf2e, it has a really great introductory adventure and has everything you need to get a Game started.

https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Beginner_Box_(Second_Edition)

[–] Spitfire@pawb.social 1 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I had looked at the Beginner’s Box but it seemed more geared toward those new to TTRPGs in general versus just learning the new system. I could be wrong, though. For that reason we were looking at more of a short, guided adventure which led me to find Rusthenge and Crown of the Kobold King.

[–] nocturne@ttrpg.network 4 points 3 weeks ago

I just ran my very experienced in ttrpg but not pathfinder group through the beginner box, and everyone had a blast. Yes it has stuff to help someone who is totally new to ttrpging (pregened character sheets have a colored coded image of the dice and the dice that come in the box match the character sheet.) But my group all made their own characters with no restrictions.

There is a second adventure path that takes place after the beginner box, but it has not been remastered yet, called Troubles in Otari. As soon as our warrior returns from Antarctica we will be starting that path.

[–] StupidOriginalName@lemmy.world 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I've also run experienced TTRPG players through the beginner box and you can kinda gloss over some of the basic tutorials. But the learning environment was still nice to get people used to the 3 action economy in a low stakes environment.

You can also get Troubles in Otari to continue the beginner box to level 5ish.

[–] StupidOriginalName@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago

Also with how short the beginner box is, even if your players don't feel that they need it, if running that makes you more comfortable GMing its probably worth running so you can learn

[–] HubertManne@piefed.social 2 points 3 weeks ago

I mean if your looking for a a small adventure then the beginners box is made for exactly that. Its encounters sorta all have a particular rule they sorta showcase. It has a sorta sequel adventure too and springs nicely into the main dungeon crawl adventure path because its located close by.

[–] I_Has_A_Hat@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I shall now share with you the best advice I was given when I started to DM, as well as the advice I passed down to my friend when my session ended and he wanted to try: