Hey all,
So I'm looking to take an active step here to understand better some things that my straight/white/cis/middle-aged male brain has had a tough time wrapping itself around, particularly in the gender identity front.
I'm working from the understanding of physical sex as the bio-bits and the expressed identity as being separate things, so that part is easy enough.
What's confusing to me though is like this. If we take gender as being an expression of your persona, a set of traits that define one as male, female, or some combination of both then what function does a title/pronoun serve? To assume that some things are masculine or feminine traits seems to put unneeded rigidity to things.
We've had men or women who enjoy things traditionally associated with the other gender for as long as there have been people I expect. If that's the case then what purpose does the need for a gender title serve?
I'll admit personally questioning some things like fairness in cis/trans integrated sports, but that's outside what I'm asking here. Some things like bathroom laws are just society needing to get over itself in thinking our personal parts are all that special.
Certainly not trying to stir up any fights, just trying to get some input from people that have a different life experience than myself. Is it really as simple as a preferred title?
Edit: Just wanted to take a second to thank all the people here who took the time to write some truly extensive thoughts and explanations, even getting into some full on citation-laden studies into neurology that'll give me plenty to digest. You all have shown a great deal of patience with me updating some thinking from the bio/social teachings of 20+ years back. π
Lets see if I can explain this clearly enough on the first try.
So your question is, "If we take gender as being an expression of your persona, a set of traits that define one as male, female, or some combination of both then what function does a title/pronoun serve?"
Well, this is both weirdly complicated and absurdly simple. Gender isn't just a set of personal traits, but also a social concept. In that framing, titles and pronouns are a signal that one gets from other people in society that tells them how their visible presentation is being perceived and interpreted.
One can relate this to the social distinction between the nobles and commoners of yore. Even though the only visible differences between the two groups are their attire, for a person that sees themselves as a member of the aristocracy to be spoken to as if they were a commoner can be a grave insult.
Likewise, most people find it discomforting when their innate sense of their own gender is contradicted by the people around them. Specifying our pronouns/titles when we introduce ourselves can provide context for folks who might have otherwise assumed someone's gender incorrectly.
Elder millennial trying his best to improve. I had issue with a friend, who identified as queer, who recently married a trans man and wanted me to use the pronoun "thier" for this person. I mean, I'm supportive, but I don't want to butcher the English language. I mean it's even uncomfortable for me to type that out as I feel like walking on eggshells to accommodate, and someone seems to be pissed off.
That'd be a "neopronoun", typically used by folks who feel like none of the standard pronouns fit them.
They're rather uncommon for the reasons you've described, even I have trouble remembering to always use xie/xir or fae/faer for my queer friends that identify as such.
Fortunately, the folks that do use neopronouns are aware of this and most are quite patient about it. So long as you show your friend and their husband that you're making an effort to recognize thier unusual gender, such as by quickly correcting yourself and moving on if you catch yourself using the wrong pronoun, then they won't think any less of you for it. π
I mean, I'm comfortable with using what you describe as neopronouns for people asking to use fae, Xi, and others, but I have a problem butchering established grammar. Her husband doesn't own or possess me. I'll use "husband" as that's an identifier my friend used or the name "Alex" they chose but to make it a point, I have to use "their" is a bit much.
Edit: I'm leaving my comment below for posterity and in case others are confused, but it actually isn't what the above is about. See jarfil's reply to this for context.
The use of "they/them/their" in the singular is a long established part of the English language. It's not new, and you're not butchering anything by using it. People who claim otherwise may either be poorly informed or intentionally being malicious. Hope this helps!
@apotheotic@beehaw.org @knightly@pawb.social
The problem seems to be asking to use the posessive determiner "their", as a personal pronoun. That's a weird one, and contrary to the established meaning of "their" that you mention.
bingo
If that's the case, I apologise. So, the person is asking you to say like...
"Alex had an appointment today. Their said it went well"?
As opposed to "Alex had their appointment today"?
Correct. This friend has always been trificult.
The singular "they" is actually a couple hundred years older than using "you" instead of "thou" as a second person pronoun.
I'm sorry to say that your English teachers were pulling a fast one on you when they told you "they/them/their" couldn't be singular.
I believe that isnβt the issue here, rather that they seem to be using the possessive βtheirβ in all cases of the use of that pronoun.
Oh! Well that is interesting!
It'd take me a while to get the hang of that. πΊ